Rod Berger's Narrative Edge: Transform Boring Interviews Into Must-Watch Content Gold!

Chris Stone [: 00:00:00

We've got a storytelling wizard with us today who sat across from everyone from Pope Francis to Magic Johnson, collecting over 4,000 conversations that reveal the psychology behind what makes people actually listen and take action. Dr. Rod Berger is here to crack the code on why some creators build devoted audiences while others just make noise. And his insights are going to flip everything you think you know about authentic content on its head.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:00:30

So.

Chris Stone [: 00:00:30

So Please welcome to Dealcasters the voice of global influence and insightful storytelling, Dr. Rod Berger. Welcome aboard.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:00:37

Rod, Chris and Jim, thank you so much. What an intro. I mean, this is just such a pro setup. And I have to agree with you with Podmatch. That has just been such a nice surprise went in, not really understanding the value prop of that, but I do encourage people to check that out for one big reason, guys. I think it allows you. I know we'll talk about a million things today, but through my interviews, I found that no matter how sort of big the celebrity was or noted individual, I finally had to take an approach that just said, I want an at bat. Like a baseball.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:01:10

Like an at bat. I want to go up, I want to swing at the ball. And that's what's amazing about Pod Match. It's just, get yourself out there, swing at the ball. You're going to learn your story. You're going to learn how to tell it in different ways and find what works. And so I've enjoyed it a lot. So that's my little, I guess, unofficial pitch about.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:01:27

About Pod Match.

Chris Stone [: 00:01:28

Wow. We're going to clip that and send that to Alex Sanfilippo or Buddy who runs. Who runs Pod Match. He's gonna. He's gonna absolutely love that. You see, Jim, I. I knew that with, you know, even just starting this thing out, we have a little story. There's like crafting, like, in there.

Chris Stone [: 00:01:41

It's like a natural, a little sports.

Jim Fuhs [: 00:01:44

You know, and it. It made me wonder, since you both from Michigan, are you both Tigers fans, because you actually have something to be happy about.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:01:52

Absolutely. Look, here's what I will say, Jim and I put this in my book. This is a kind of fan, right? I grew up during the bad boy era. I'm probably older than Chris. Chris has that young man's hair going there. So most kids growing up would put posters on sort of the walls of their bedroom. You know what I did? That sounds corny, but for me, it was so important in my storytelling and just the way in which it incorporated my own story. I would put the headlines and the posters on my Ceiling.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:02:22

Because at night I wanted to go to bed. It was the last thing that I would see.

Chris Stone [: 00:02:25

Nice.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:02:26

Wow.

Chris Stone [: 00:02:27

Nice. So you probably had Ben Wallace and.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:02:30

Chauncey Billups and I had Isaiah. I had. Okay, I had Mars, maybe the hanky that they. It was like a black and white, you know, bad boys that you're swinging at the game and all of that headlines from 89 and all of that good stuff, man.

Chris Stone [: 00:02:46

Yeah, so. Oh, God. Okay, so we have stories already and like, you know, I'm learning so much already. Part of the time, Rod, with. When we bring a guest like you on, there's this, hey, this, this guest can absolutely serve our audience. And. But there's also sort of a, hey, this is kind of free consultation for me. Like, I gotta learn how to tell some stuff too, because we're on this side of the mic.

Chris Stone [: 00:03:12

We're on the other side of the mic too. I joke, but you've sat, You've sat in interviews with Pope Francis, Magic Johnson. I saw recently UFC champion Khabib Nurgomedov. What would you say is the one storytelling mistake maybe that you see creators making that immediately kills that audience connection?

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:03:43

Love that question, Chris. I think it's that they. It's all inverted, right? The, the agenda drives the creation. And I think that that's. I think you need to have it loosely in mind, especially in a corporate space when you're thinking about marketing, right. You know, there's some things that you want to hit, but the problem is you are. You're backfilling with. You're backfilling with messages that don't connect.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:04:07

And so I never go in with an agenda. I learned that early on in my interviewing that if I was going to be my best, it could not be based on an agenda that I want to get something out of somebody. One of my, this is one of my rules. And not everybody is in the media to what the three of us do and the way we participate in conversations publicly. But I'll tell people, look, if you want me to talk about things that I can find in a press release, then I'm the wrong guy, because to me, that's lazy storytelling. Yeah, but now in a world of AI, we can. You can package these things together in a matter of moments if you understand long form prompts and you understand that if you put good information in, you can get good information out. But that's dangerous, right? Because I can look at a press release, I can look at data points, but I need to understand Jim's story of being A lieutenant colonel, sure, we're talking today, we're live on all these platforms.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:05:02

But I want to understand what's in the dark corners of his mind. And if I go in with an agenda, I'm going to miss that. I'm probably going to miss the gold. So I think what people get wrong is they are so hell bent on an agenda because their value prop in their position is dependent upon them delivering on that one KPI. And I think that misses the point. Right? You'll get a marcom, sort of this mishmash department or outsourced folks that you bring together. You say, guys, we want to talk about our new product and everybody has to contribute something because otherwise why are they getting paid? Why are they sort of on the payroll? Well, now what happens? Well, okay, with three of us are working on something and Chris, if you don't say something and the CEO or the chief marketing officer sits there, it's like, well, what's Chris offering? You know, it's like if you call your lawyer for, for advice, they're going to give it to you because they can't charge you otherwise. Sometimes, right.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:05:57

It's just a basic premise. And I think the same thing happens in storytelling. And sometimes I think you have to go with your gut and do an exploratory investigation about stories that impact your demographic that you're trying to reach. And if you do that and you're curious now, you can formulate. All right, We've been wrong the whole time. We've been going through this sort of seven steps to achieving X or Y. You should include this into your supplement regimen. Okay, fine, but how did we get there? Well, we have to sell these products.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:06:25

No, no, no, no. But why? Like, what's the market need? What's the story around that? What's the story of the people of that are most likely to buy your product? Right. Is there, you know, it's like stopping an elevator between two floors. I'm a big believer in that. Right. This goes back to Dead Poets Society and Robin Williams standing on the desk giving a different platform and perspective. And Ethan Hawke looking at him and captain, my captain as he stands on the desk because it fueled him with a different perspective of his contribution to that environment, that classroom, amongst his classmates at that given point in time. So I think that's a huge mistake that we make, is that we're agenda driven.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:07:02

It's like you brought up Habib, right, The UFC fighter. I mean, I was sitting in this chair and I get a random phone call from this. From this group out of New York. And it was one of the, you know, today who picks up a random phone call?

Chris Stone [: 00:07:16

I don't.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:07:17

For whatever reason, I did, I did. And it was this person who said, you know, hey, Rod, you don't know who I am, but we were in a meeting about Habib, the UFC hall of Famer, and your name popped up as someone who might do something different. Yeah, okay. I had. I had nothing to lose, so I said, wow, this is interesting. And I. I said, well, given the. The language and the translation, potential issues, I think this should be done in person because I had nothing to lose.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:07:43

Right. And they said, oh, yeah, you're probably right. And then I said, well, let's go a step further. It's just a random phone call on a Monday. I said, I think we should do it inside the Octagon, and I think you should film it. And they said, now that's interesting. Let's get back to you. Ten minutes later, they're like, yeah, he loves it.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:08:00

And then, like, you know, a couple weeks later, I'm down in Miami inside the Octagon, interviewing the guy. Now, I was told by everybody, don't ask him this, don't ask him that. Right? Okay, fine, whatever. I sort of ignore that because I'm not going in with an agenda. So it's never going to be on my sort of call list to then go down and ask.

Chris Stone [: 00:08:20

Right.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:08:21

And guess what? He didn't talk about fighting. He talked about post fight, sort of fighting career and his dream of going back to Dagestan and selling vegetables to local villagers in his community. Wow. Then they sent those clips out, they went viral. Millions of views. And I did the thing that we normally shy away from, which was like, look at the comments. People love that they got to know him in a way that was very different than tactically, like what happened when he fought McGregor or things like that. Um, and that's because there's no agenda going into it.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:08:55

And sometimes you have to trust your gut, even in professional settings. It's like, how would this land if I saw this ad on a Saturday with my family? Right. It's going to land different here in the office or over a zoom. Like, am I going to care? You know, and that's the thing, I think if you go without an agenda at the front end of it, you can work on scripts that actually connect with people. And two, but if everybody's value prop is in contributing something at that conference room table, you're sort of at a loss and that's where I think the leaders have to set the stage. Right. Like McKinsey just came out with a report last week about it. Storytelling is everywhere, in every domain of our lives.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:09:31

How do we tell better stories? Because of the importance of pulling people in and going, look, Jim and Chris, in essence, I'm new to the company, but I believe in their story. I believe that I can participate on the proverbial stage with them, even if I am the standalone oak tree in the back corner. Because at this point in my career, I can learn from them, and I know I can contribute. And the tree is part of the environment, and that is just as important as who's talking center stage. Wow.

Chris Stone [: 00:09:59

Outstanding. So we often talk to people to create some sort of structure or some sort of outline when they're doing an interview or even when they're going in to be a guest. And we say, just never wing it, because that usually ends up. But it sounds to me like there's a lot of winging going on before even you're interviewing UFC championship. So a lot of what you do is reading the room, right? Having that conversation, maybe, and seeing where it goes and chasing the answers and seeing where the guest is comfortable going. Do I have that? Accurately put me in the seat where you're in the octagon talking to Habib, and he. He gets to the, you know, to his philanthropic thing where, you know, in. In feeding, you know, underprivileged and things like that.

Jim Fuhs [: 00:10:59

What.

Chris Stone [: 00:10:59

How does it go there? How did you get there? Because, you know, and then, you know, in order to make it different, how did you get him to tell that story?

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:11:09

I love that you brought. You brought up with sort of winging it. And so, you know, guilty as charged in. In some manner. Right. And I would. Look, I wasn't born, you know, I. I had to put in the time in the 4000 interviews and all of that.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:11:21

And counting early on, I will say that I. I would take, like, you know, if I was going to interview you guys, I would do it two weeks out so that I had two weeks to dive into your backgrounds and read, find whatever I could. That's just that general sort of panic. You want to be prepared. You want to be professional. You don't want to be stuck with a camera on you, freezing. We all have that sort of fear of, like, freeze, right? But then I had an instance where an interview got rescheduled. Something happened where it wasn't going to be in a few days.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:11:52

It was going to be, like, in an hour or two. And I didn't have any extra time obviously to prep. So I'm a child of Star wars and I had to sort of channel the Obi Wan Kenobi and like, go with the Force, right? Like trust the Force. Trust my general curiosity about people. And I found that, sure, you might, might be sort of accused as being winging it during an interview, but there's something that you, you exchange with another individual and it doesn't have to be in person, it can be digitally. That is just saying, we're in this together, right? So it is a. It is that metaphorical dance with somebody. And if I'm curious about some just general human elements, stuff automatically comes out.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:12:34

And only because I've done so many interviews, I. There's only one interview out of all of those interviews where I look back and think, wow, I wouldn't want to do that one again. And funny enough, it was a CEO who I like immensely. Incredibly accomplished. This woman is so on book that even her people afterwards said, we know, it's the hardest gig ever, right? She's an amazing human being, but she's so on book. She does not divert at all. And you just think, what's the value in that conversation? So my prep evolved over time to where even now when people ask me for advice and I'll take these calls because I was once them and I had people who, who supported me or at least gave me enough Runway to figure things out. I'm old school, guys.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:13:24

I'll take a blank sheet of white paper. I have it all the time. I should be planting trees on a daily basis. I will take that white sheet divided into four squares with a Sharpie. And if I'm interviewing you guys, I'm going to put one word in each square. Now, I don't do this stuff anymore. I don't, you know, my. But in the beginning, this really helped me.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:13:42

These are the four domains that I want to. I want to hit on. And sequence does not matter. But I know at the end of it, as we're talking, I might be able to put a check mark in quadrant one, right? And then quadrant three, I'm going to look down and go, yeah, you know what? We hit all of that, right? Early career, maybe there was some devastating news. You lost a company or you were, you were fired or you were part of, you know, or you were part of a successful exit, something like that. Just to give me at least some parameter so I'm not cave diving underwater without a rope to hold on to it's. Funny how when you have that, it's like a transitional object for kids, right? They're going through something, they're young, the parents divorce. Now they're in two homes, they've got a stuffed animal that they like.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:14:23

It's like that stuffed animal is as important to that parent as anything. Because when that kid's going between houses, they want to hold on to something that they know that they can channel their energy into. And I think some of that is in that prep. So look, the rule for me is that press release element, if I can find it in a press release, I'm not going to ask you about it. And I don't think it should be a part of the storytelling. If anything, you find a way to bury it as a way that is maybe the way you want to promote the story. Right. People talk like, well, tell a story.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:14:51

And I'm going to, you know, they'll do an amazing job on, let's say, the asset, and then they go to promote it on LinkedIn. And whatever the pros are within that post, it's like secondary. They think about. It's just like a company that works on the product and at the very end they say, oh, now we need to talk to marketing. It's like, well, marketing should have been in there from like at least day two, maybe not day one. Right. You got to find ways to be able to put those elements in that will hopefully tease the audience enough to bring them to watch whatever it is that you're posting that you worked so hard on. So, yeah, I think if you do it well, it feels organic, it maybe it feels like it's on a whim, but it's not.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:15:28

Right. Like you're, you're thoughtfully. It's like. And you find points of connect. That's the number one thing I did in the beginning was I divided into four squares. And the other thing was, is there any point of connection? Right. So Chris found out in our pre discussion here before the interview, the live interview, we both grew up in Michigan, right. So if I was interviewing you, I would have probably found that, you know, 10 years ago or whatever.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:15:50

Yeah, okay. And. And I would have used that either in the interview or right before because it's going to, it's just going to level set stuff where you're going to give me enough grace to find my way and hopefully I find it pretty quickly. And if I extend and ask you something personal, you're going to. It'll be okay. You know, it'll be okay. And, and I think as you get better at it in your storytelling, you can take bigger risks. And people would say that the risks.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:16:22

I don't see them as risks. Right. It's like when I interviewed Mario Lopez, right? First thing I asked him was if his hair color was. If it was real. I wanted to know. I wanted to.

Chris Stone [: 00:16:34

Asking a woman her age. Come on, right?

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:16:36

And he was great about it. He was great about it. But. And of course, I joke because my hair is not as dark and flowing as Mario Lopez as we see, like, on Access Hollywood. But I just. It was a way to break the ice, say I'm human. And. And so I think that that's a part of it.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:16:52

But. But, God, if you can let. If people can walk away going, I've never had an interview like that, or I never. I never worked on capturing a story in that way. You've done something right.

Chris Stone [: 00:17:04

God, that is. That's a huge goal for podcasters right there. Because there's a ton of people. We always say this to folks, Rod is, you know, anybody can do a podcast. I mean, it's pretty. You know, it's getting easier.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:17:19

Anybody does, right?

Chris Stone [: 00:17:22

That's it. But not everyone can do a good podcast. And so. Or interview a lot of people. Like, they want to be Barbara Walters or they want to be, you know, Brian Gumbel or insert, you know, Howard Stern, whoever, you know, a great interviewer is. How important is it? Because I've noticed throughout the course of our conversation, just getting to know each other here for the first few minutes, you're not only just hearing what we're saying, you're listening. There's active listening happening on your end because you're calling back things we've spoken about. This is becoming part of the trust building that you're talking about here.

Chris Stone [: 00:18:04

Talk about how important active listening is for both sides of the mic.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:18:09

So it speaks to the value of silence. And I would say that I should absolutely pay homage to my training in my past life of getting my doctorate in clinical psychology and understanding clinical intakes. And that when you're sitting in the room across from somebody that is suicidal or going through a divorce or a kid that sadly has been abused or is an abusive environment, you become very keenly aware of your physical presence in the room. You become keenly aware of the power of silence and providing at your. The best intention and unbiased environment for them to share whatever it is they want to share. And so I think that that's been a big part of how I've tried to Approach conversations with people and in understanding that the little things that you pick up on from illicit hearing and that's the stuff that lets people know that you're paying attention. It's funny because, you know, sadly, I spent. I won't tell you how much I spent on my degree.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:19:14

Right. And nothing against my old. My old world. Right. And colleagues and friends to this day, but really, when you boil it all down, I remember there was someone that I was working with and I made an offhanded comment. I was at this, you know, this community clinic, you know, just sort of sharpening my skills. And I remember saying to this individual that I had thought about them when I had been at the grocery store. Something reminded me of something, the story that maybe they had shared in the session and they lit up because I reference that I had thought about them outside of a organized sort of predetermined arrangement, which was our session, our weekly session.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:20:00

And I think that's. I think that that stands a test of time that when people. This is how relationships sort of grow. Friendships, romantic relationships, the way in which our. Our kids, I think, understand that we love them when they're at school, even if we're not in front. They're not in front of us. And I think you can do that when you're interviewing somebody or you're creating stories, it's like, how can I connect with you in a way that it's not a direct question, but it's a reference point to an earlier discussion we had that show that I was paying attention, that it wasn't my. Goes back to that agenda.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:20:32

Right. That what I was doing was not about me. It was about how do we have a conversation that's going to be the best for the audience. Right, Right. This isn't just, yeah, sure, I've got my book and I'd love people to preorder all that great stuff and you guys have a show and you're. You're doing all these amazing things. One that I'm learning, learning from as well. And hence like Amazon Live.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:20:50

I didn't even, you know, ignorant on my end of it. I didn't know people were doing that.

Chris Stone [: 00:20:54

The way you're gonna sell more books, my friend. That is what you're some folks.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:20:59

Okay, so. So you're crushing in a lot of ways that I'm learning. But like, my objective should be I just want to have a conversation with you guys. Right. This was. You took a risk on me and I took a risk on you in sort of joining together and having this conversation. And I think that then it provides something, hopefully, that's unique for the audience that's trying to either, I don't know Lear from one of us, but. But it's not just about me.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:21:24

And that goes back to that agenda piece. So you're exactly right. Listening and then, like, hearing somebody. Because that's the gold. When you pick up on stuff that they don't say, the way that they lean in or they don't, man, that. That's a skill that I hope my kids learn. I hope they're learning. And it.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:21:44

That's maybe a silver lining of a Covid where we went. Wait a minute. I can't just quote command of a room physically, right? You know, I'm not 6 4. In my dreams I am, and I play for my Detroit Pistons, but that's never going to happen. But, you know, it's like that notion of, like, commanding a room physically to, wait a minute, I'm on a. I'm on a zoom or I'm in some digital platform. How do I convey leadership? Do I have to fill it with words? Do I have to fill it with sort of having a background that looks. You have to understand your presence so that you can listen and hear people in their world.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:22:15

And I think people then extend that back to you, and it's a nice reciprocity.

Chris Stone [: 00:22:20

And I also think that. And you. You have more experience in this than. And so feel free to. To tell me I'm a knucklehead on this, but don't you think, like, if someone's looking for. If someone is looking for an interview on YouTube with Charles Barkley, who you've interviewed, and the interviewer is asking kind of the same questions, and Charles Barkley and the company he's representing have the same things on the hit list that he needs to hit. What's the difference between the interview that one person's doing versus the other? If they're all just covering these agenda points, these same agenda points, they're really only the difference is maybe the interviewer. And if they're not that interesting, why would anybody watch or listen? Right? And so I think if you're.

Chris Stone [: 00:23:07

If you're looking at it from the standpoint of, like, listen, I understand you want to hit these points. That's cool. But I'm going to find something. I'm going to fill the cracks that everyone else is leaving open for me, and you create something different. You create something. And yeah, it might not hit with everyone, but, you know, not all our content hits with Everyone. Right. And so I think in order to be different, but also excellent.

Chris Stone [: 00:23:34

I think the preparation I think you're talking about really is, is key. And you, you touched on AI earlier and you touched on it because I immediately thought, okay, this is a storytelling guy, right? This is, you know, so like, here we come with, hey, you know, anti AI. We're pro AI, but we're anti theft here.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:23:55

Yeah.

Chris Stone [: 00:23:55

So, so we're about utilizing, you know, AI in many ways, but not letting it replace ourselves and our own voices. Right. So it sounds to me like you are in the same lane. But I kind of wanted to. Yeah, because. So I kind of wanted to, like, if you're trying to craft stories or you're trying to prep for these interviews, maybe let's touch on how, you know, first of all, how you feel about AI currently, where it's going, but also maybe some, some tactical stuff that you use.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:24:27

So, yes, I am, I am. I don't know if I'd say in the, in the vein of sort of pro AI, but I am, I'm, I'm reading about it, I'm listening to pod. I'm learning as much as I can because I had a lesson. There was a guy that I had been collaborating with, production guy, and he, this is just a few years ago, he took, he didn't tell me he was doing this, but basically what he was doing was he was creating a couple of Personas based on my writing publicly from Forbes and Entrepreneur magazine. And he was sort of testing out how powerful I was and creating a writing style and voice that matched me. And so he asked me this sort of big question, you know, end of life, whatever it was. And then he basically sent me two versions based on two different writing styles because of the different publications and what they look for. And I could not.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:25:20

I mean, it sounded just like me. And so that was a massive wake up call that, yeah, I've got to pay attention. You know what reminded me, Chris? It reminded me of the days. Do you remember these days, back when I got to present somewhere and you'd have a PowerPoint and people would go, can we get a copy of that PowerPoint?

Jim Fuhs [: 00:25:37

Right?

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:25:37

And there was always that, like, I don't want to share that. I put work into it. What are you going to do with it? You know, exactly. And then you finally had that point where you just go, I don't really care. Like, go ahead and take it. Because there's. Even if you go and present it yourself, it's going to come across probably pretty Stale.

Chris Stone [: 00:25:53

Have at it.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:25:54

Right? So you kind of just let the floodgates open. I go back when it comes to AI, for me, AI is about. It's the old notion of garbage in, garbage out, right? So if you are a content, if you're in the content space and you are asking AI to come up with content cold, then that's a you problem. As I joke with my kids about, like, that's a you problem. Yeah, but if you're putting in, if you're putting in existing content from reputable sources, like articles about whatever it is, podcast techniques, and you wanted to analyze it, or you're going to work on like put in some of your own content alongside that and then analyze it and create really creative stuff. Fine. But there's a huge difference between, let's say a 22 year old and we've all been there where you're like, oh, okay, they need something from me and you're seeking the answer to get the end product. Between that and wait a minute.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:26:48

Well, we've got all these blogs that our company has put out, right? So I'm going to upload these blogs, I'm going to analyze them, we're going to put it together and create sort of these Personas based on leaders that have voices. Because a lot of companies will reach out to me behind the scenes and say, hey, we want to create podcasts for our, you know, our CEO, our cfo, like, everybody wants to have their show. You were talking about that earlier, right? You know, everybody and anybody has a podcast. Okay, but what's their voice like? What do they want to contribute? And if they're sort of overlapping now, we're just, we're cannibalizing the value that we could be offering the market. And so it truly to me is if you put good information in and then you add really interesting ways in which you integrate that content, you get some really cool stuff. But I, so when I see stuff that I just know there's no way that that individual wrote something like, fine, they used AI. But if they asked, if they were just at putting prompts in, like, you know, read the Wall Street Journal and give me a synopsis of this or create newsletter copy from literally nothing, I think you're going to get further and further from it. And you do run the risk of something coming out.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:27:59

It's not even about something being accurate. But I think it's at that moment in time when the CEOs on stage and it's a Q and A or they're being interviewed by you guys, and you reference something that they wrote in quotes or that the company did, and they have no connection to it. Even if they have an answer. You sense it's like you don't know. It's sort of like it's old school. You talk to the sales department, okay, so what's the value prop of our product? And they tell you something, and you go to leadership, and you go, all right, what's the value prop of this product line? You know, sounds like two different companies, because the sales team, they extracted things that you have far down the ladder of value in the hierarchy because that's what the market wanted. Yet you're telling me, as leadership, that it's these top three things. That's not so.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:28:44

I think AI is incredibly valuable. I think we have to understand it. I think the education world is about to get just. You talk about we had a tsunami warning around the world after the earthquake in eastern Russia. It's like, and I'm a parent, I don't know what's going to happen. But look, the pursuit of knowledge has always been education, like with seeking an answer.

Chris Stone [: 00:29:03

Right?

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:29:04

Okay. But if the answers are provided, okay, that changes the calculus. Right? What's my motivation? Right. Like, motivation is not there. What am I going to do? And how's it going to impact the work that I want to do, the jobs that are there? So I think AI for anybody, you don't have to be a content creator. I think everybody should be diving into it. The other lastly, sorry, Jim, to cut you off, is that the different platforms that I'm a part of, even from editing and other part, every day there's an update that you say, wow, it's like you have more than three wishes with the genie in the bottle. It's like, it's unending.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:29:40

It's like Will Smith is popping out of the bottle, giving us all kinds of wishes, granting our wishes. I mean, really, Right? It's like, oh, now I can just. I could just. I can just drop in. Oh, please create that. Yup, there it is. You know, it's. It's unbelievable.

Jim Fuhs [: 00:29:56

Yeah. So, Rod, you bring up a great point about AI and, you know, with the number of interviews you've done and just you've used your brain, you've used critical thinking to come up with things. How do content creators keep that in mind as they're developing their content so that they don't become stale and just like, oh, well, I'll just go have AI give me a script and, you know, we'll do this. And because I think that's the danger with this younger generation is they're not using critical thought like we maybe were raised to do.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:30:30

Great question, Jim. I'll give you two different sort of ways of thinking about this. One is, I remember I worked like seven years in restaurants growing up. You know, you bus boy, dishwasher, whatever. It was one, I think that that should be required training for everybody, sort of like military service in other countries. Because you learn, especially when you're a server or even a host, you learn to sort of interact with people at different levels. They come in with a different, literally a different story, right? They either upset, they're happy, they're celebrating, they're grieving, whatever it is, they're. They're eating away their worries.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:31:02

And in the back of the house, if you want to become a manager at a restaurant or a chain of restaurants, you have to actually work every job that they have back of the house as part of their sort of training program so that you know how all these elements work. So when it comes to how do we avoid sort of being myopic in our storytelling, take that example and translate that to the stage, the storytelling, you know, we're in a play, right? You want to be able to. You need to sit in the audience, be a part of the audience, be a part of the front row, the back corner. You need to be on stage from your perspective. You need to have the leading role, you need to be a supporting role. And then you need to just be a part of the landscape or the scenery. Like, pressure test your story. Like, who is this going to hit? And if it's only going to hit a small demographic, that's fine, if that's our objective.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:31:51

Because maybe the story is meant to elicit the interest from an investor pool, right? A discrete group of people. If it's about brand awareness, okay, what are the masses going to want from this? And I think sometimes we get stuck and say, well, look, this is the value proposition of this product, okay? Maybe for one group that we're trying to reach, and also maybe we're just trying to reach that group to increase our opportunities for collaborative partnerships, channel partnerships, strategic initiatives, or. Or it's just to push product. Either way. You want to pressure test your story based on the different roles within a story itself, largely. And I love thinking about it from a stage perspective, right? It's that third grade, you know, you're the oak tree, you're the. You're the lead character coming out, and you have, you know, I'LL talk about like chalking the field. Okay.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:32:42

We go back to athletics and sports and my love of that. It sounds like you guys as well. Same thing on stage, it's like, look, you're going to know your boundaries. If you go too far into the audience, you're going to fall off the stage. And if it's a musical, you might fall into the French horn, right? And if you're not close enough to the audience, what are you going to do? You're going to fall behind backstage, right? Where you're just with the curtains, right? You're nowhere close to meeting your audience and you're going to have a different perspective, right? It's the Dead Poet Society, right? It's that Robin Williams standing on the desk. You've got. That's pressure testing. It's.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:33:15

And too often, what do we do? We create content, right? We're energetic, we create content. We send it up the chain to leadership and maybe the CEO or the leader, you know, the C suite looks at it and go, oh, that's good. Okay. So we got the approval of sort of our bosses or the people that sign our checks, but did we prep? Did we have an open conversation about what our expectation is of that content, the audiences were trying to, to reach? And then what is our follow up plan on this content? Right? I mean, how many people that are, that are watching or listening to this? Or the three of us, where you've been in meetings or been a part of meetings where there's been some event like take conferences, right? Companies love to go to conferences. They used to, right. That following Monday, right? People get, and they sit around a table and they're like, oh, hey, Chris and Jim, so how do we do with the conference? You know, and you're like, oh, that's great. We go, right, well, how many, how many people visited the booth? And you're like, well, we had, you know, 78 people. Okay.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:34:11

And you're just throwing out ones and zeros that are not stories, by the way. Ones and zeros are not stories unless you make them stories. Wow. And too many times, that's what we do to save our back end. If I'm getting in a meeting and I'm new, you're a startup, you guys have brought me in. Hey, Rod, we want you to be our storyteller. If I'm not rooted in my own confidence about how to tell a story, capture a story and relay a story, then I'm just going to shoot numbers at you because ultimately I don't think you Understand the value of what I'm doing in providing that story. So I'm going to use what I think you value, ones and zeros, but ones and zeros are not stories.

Chris Stone [: 00:34:56

Interesting. So you're talking a lot about being in corporate boardrooms, right? But you also do. You've worked refugee camps, you worked with various, you know, different things. You talk about the creating of. Creating of the content. But so much of what's going on in content creation is creating something that grabs your attention, something that's very clickable, something that's, you know, sensational. Right. How do you balance something that needs to have that professionalism, the dignity, the excellence? You know, I'm not saying that people aren't making clickable content that isn't excellent.

Chris Stone [: 00:35:42

I'm not saying that at all. But a lot of your content is immersive, right? It's long form interviews. This interview right here, we're going back and forth with scenes. It's going to be repurposed into an audio podcast. And so we have that in mind the entire time. It's a different experience for people. They're commuting, they're walking their dogs, they're maybe listening together. I guess that's a thing now.

Chris Stone [: 00:36:09

Or they might be watching on YouTube and you may be able to get their attention for a longer period of time. So I guess, how do you. What's that? Sort of maybe the psychology behind that, like creating content that's clickable, maybe more vulnerable, just more real, versus the stuff that like you're seeing right here or hearing right here, that might be considered maybe more professional and more polished.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:36:35

See, I don't. I like that question, Chris. I don't know if I would organize it in the same way, though. Okay, so to me, it's about. Look, I think, I think it's like right now I had a conversation with a group in Oslo. I'm going to be hosting this Nordic Climate Finance Summit and I'm very excited to do that here later in the summer. And we're talking about sort of video storytelling and ways in which scripts can be written that match video in sort of this, you know, voice of sort of God coming in talk, you know, that sort of 10,000 foot voice talking about the value of this event. So I love these short sort of snappy things that can create interest.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:37:16

But it's understanding where it's like, you know, my son, we were talking about sort of understanding utensils, right? And working your way in, right? When you're at a restaurant, like what I Do with the small fork. Right. It's the D and the B and which is my drink. I think the same kind of thing goes to our content, right? As long as we understand that the teaser content is just that, go full blower. Right? Okay. Because that should draw the interest in and then go ahead. And if it's long form content, great. This notion, I remember when people started, I don't know, maybe eight years ago, something like that, it was like, oh, long form content is over.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:37:54

Really? Who's saying that? I. I think that's actually the people that don't know either how to provide long form content. They're scared by the notion of having to put together long form content. Because everything I see is the opposite. People love it. They want to connect. They want to feel like they have a community. It's like if you follow back in the old days, you know, it's like if you followed a radio show host and you just.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:38:17

That was your morning commute, right? If, if that, if that station dropped that show or something, or it changed times, you feel so off kilter. It's like, are you kidding me? I've been listening to this individual for four years. Every Monday through Friday, they become a part of your family. Right? Exactly. So I think it's just about understanding where, like, are you the salad fork? You know, is this content the salad fork? Or is this the main dish? Or is this, you know, my dessert spoon? Just understand that so that you can respect the value of the short form that you're using to promote. And that way now you're free to look at that long form and say, all right, now how do we dice this up? Like, what's the most compelling way? Right. Maybe we had some ideas in the beginning. Like, look, we're probably going to get some great quotes from Jim on this.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:39:03

So we're going to be looking at creating some sort of static stuff that has his quotes in writing. Maybe we'll do some audio sort of grams where we hear him talking. Or maybe Jim is like, he's just. He sort of screams off the page in a way where you go, like, we got to show his face. We want to show the video of him because his personality pops. That changes the calculus, right as Chris is laughing. But. But you see what I'm saying? It allows you to get creative because you're not.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:39:34

And you're not trying to tell the audience, like, everything is just in this short form teaser. What do we, what do we despise about movies? And I'm talking about movies Back when we would all go to the movies, you'd see a preview, you'd see a trailer, right? And you say, yep, oh my. I am that Friday night. I am going, that's worth my time. And then you say to yourself, oh, I think the trailer was the best part.

Chris Stone [: 00:39:55

Best parts of the movie. Yep, exactly.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:39:58

Don't be that creator. Right. Leave something to the imagination. But that goes to content creation of all kind. By the way, the last point on that is respect the audience. You don't have to tell them everything. Like, let them figure some of it out. Like, don't, I think, cheapen their experience where you just literally lay that out.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:40:19

Which is why I have. It's funny, I don't know if we'll get into this at all. Or people are, you know, so many people have podcasts and also so many people are writing books, especially because of self publishing. But like, I'm not the guy that's going to give you the seven steps to anything. Like, that's not in my DNA. Because I think that that that leaves behind origination and originality, I should say. And, you know, it's like, okay, how do I bottle this together? I mean, it's funny, this is very cynical of me, but I think people, especially in the west and for the audience that's in the US and maybe they did this in Canada as well or Europe, but it's like, I don't know what grade it is, but all right, we want you to write out all the steps you take when you're brushing your teeth. And as a kid, you're like, oh, wow, I didn't realize I stepped up to the, you know, the counter.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:41:05

And then I, you know, it's like, we didn't like doing it then. Why do it? What means I want to do this now, like anybody. And now with AI, you can generate a sort of a quote ebook on the 10 things to do in a nanosecond, especially if you're getting good at your promotion prompts. Sure, that's a short term win, but we're talking about content that I think sticks. I think you have to be more original with that and be willing to explore that long form and understand the value of the short form teaser.

Jim Fuhs [: 00:41:35

I think that's so powerful, Rod, because I mean, when you think about it, I mean, just the fact that, yeah, you got these people that are immersed in TikTok and we'll say Instagram reels, but the reality is when you sit down, do you get on your, you know, I guess people still watch tv. Do you sit there and say, oh, I want to watch something for a minute and then watch something else? No, you sit there. Or like, we'll binge watch things. Like we'll binge watch a series. You know, Chris and I were talking about the. The show that you were a part of on Netflix.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:42:07

The.

Jim Fuhs [: 00:42:08

The Big Blue is a Big Blue Water Chris. I might have got the name wrong, but that sort of stuff is like, that's interesting. I want to learn more about it. I don't want to just have a. Oh, look, 30 second, 60 second clip. That was great.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:42:22

Yeah, I think I look, I think people want. It's funny the fact I had the chance to interview Daniel Pink years ago and I'm a big fan of his and he's always been very kind. Like once a year I'll shoot him an email and we'll correspond. And he has this. He has this notion where he talks about we're stimulus rich but context poor. And I love that because it goes back to he had a book. Don't quote me on this. I think it was like 0809, something like that.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:42:53

I think it's called A Whole New Mind. And I love the premise of it because it's sort of like the more evolved that we get. Sort of everything folds in on itself and becomes simpler design, like different elements. And so I think that that comes to our storytelling as well. And because things are moving at such a pace, we actually do want to slow down and we want to feel connected. And that, I think, is the power of this medium, which is the audio component, audio and video and storytelling and interviewing people, is that we want to know that people are out there. It's like we've landed on a planet and we're sort of looking to like, tap into a signal. We don't know that's there, but, like, oh, Chris and Jim are on the other side of the moon.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:43:33

I'm going to get over there because I need that sort of human connection. So I think that, you know, while we are stimulus rich, we're dying for context. We're dying to understand what role we could play in someone else's larger story or one that we could produce together.

Chris Stone [: 00:43:50

All right, so you. We've talked about your book coming yet we haven't talked about the book. And here we are most of the way through.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:43:57

What a teaser Hunter.

Chris Stone [: 00:43:58

Yes. Yes. So I'm to going. Just going to go there because, Rod, you're going to. You're going to talk about everything but the book. But we've got to talk about the book. And this book is called the Narrative Edge. And if you're watching over on Amazon, it's in the carousel and it's by our friend, our new friend, Dr.

Chris Stone [: 00:44:19

Rod Berger. And it's the Narrative Edge, authentic storytelling that meets the moment. And it's a pre order right now for the hardcover. And it's out in November. What's the date?

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:44:31

That's correct? Yeah, I think it gets delivered by the 18th, I think. But I pre ordered it today.

Jim Fuhs [: 00:44:38

I said the 18th.

Chris Stone [: 00:44:39

Yeah.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:44:39

Well, thank you.

Chris Stone [: 00:44:41

Rock on. And then of course, the website is drrodberger.com where you can, you know, you can order the book other places, but we're live on Amazon, so we're gonna say that you can get it on on Amazon. And this is a fantastic site. And it goes into a lot of your story and your journey, which we sort of touched on. But we'll let those other interviews that, that you've been on, those other thousands of interviews, they can, you can go over and catch those interviews to talk more about this journey. Rod, I'm excited to definitely talk a little bit more about the book. And is who is this book for?

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:45:20

Such a good question. In the beginning, I don't know if I knew exactly, in essence who it was for. When Wiley reached out to me, I was definitely one of the lucky ones. Knock on wood. I would not profess that I know how lucky I am that the publisher came to me and that was one of the first questions like, who's it for? I kind of went back to my roots of just being curious. And I thought, you know what? I have to honor the way in which I've approached all of this. This is not for one specific group. I want this to be a book for.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:45:49

And not, I should say this. Let's say you're a CEO. I don't want you to just read this in your role as a CEO. I want you to read this in your role as a CEO, as a mother, a wife, a sister, a father, a husband, a brother, an uncle, a community member, a community coach, a youth coach. This is for anybody and everybody who wants to understand the role of story in their life. And I did that intentionally. It's funny, because when I first started podcasting, I remember somebody said to me, why are you interviewing these people from different sort of segments of the world? Why aren't you just focusing on this one population or demographic? And I just said, one, I don't think that's interesting, and two, I Think people are far more compelling. Right.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:46:35

And complex. And so I'm going to learn if I interview people of all backgrounds and, and sort of successes or levels of success, students, you know, obviously it went sort of higher than I would have ever expected originally. And so the book is for anybody who wants to understand their own story better ultimately. And it doesn't matter the role that you're in. Right. Could I envision this as sort of a carry on book for, for, you know, early career entrepreneurs? Yeah, I could. Right. Could I see this being used with a leadership group? Sure.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:47:07

Book clubs, you know. Absolutely. But that's only because of the feedback, not because I'm sitting here saying, oh wow, it's, you know, I've written this great book. I've been very fortunate to send copies of the book to people from all around the world and they've been very kind to take their time. And the response which, and thank you for sharing the Amazon page. But I know a lot of those testimonials are on there and those are relationships that I forged And I think 95% of those all started from interviews. So when you read those from people all around the world, those are people that in essence I invested initially in and then they've invested in me from a storytelling perspective. But the makeup of the book really, it's, you know, on the Amazon page, I know for folks who are live.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:47:49

But you'll see the testimonials on that page. Look, I don't know if I intended Chris and Jim for there to be a memoir component to it. It just happened that way. Like when I finally got in the zone with it, it's like, how could I not convey my experiences to show the parameters or the perceived parameters of stories in our lives? So I share, I mean, I share story in all kinds of formats. Right. When my sister in law passed away at a very young age with three kids, I was asked to provide and give the eulogy graveside. You get to read that eulogy. I depict a story of my father who grew up in Nazi Germany, who died years ago from a story that he had shared with me.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:48:32

I was the only one who shared it. And I tell it to you in the opening of the book, but it's written more like a scene of a movie. Right. I, I integrate in, you know, six word stories at the beginning and the end of every chapter. I'm trying to push the envelope to say stories and something that you just add to your repertoire as a parent, as a leader, as a worker. Any of these Employees. It's. That story is just a part of our ethos.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:48:58

And the sooner that we understand that our story has value, I think the sooner that we can then engage with others. Whether we're providing, providing or producing content, or we're trying to generate an idea, it all plays a role. So I take you in every chapter. You can go from a refugee camp in Africa to Formula One to. To Northern Michigan and summer camp in the late 80s. And that's intentional. Now, I. And the funny thing is, is the way that I write, I sit down with my popcorn, my headphones, and my movie scores and I just.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:49:35

I let it rip and I don't know what's going to come out. I may even have a loose idea. I think in this chapter, I really. This is. This might be a story and it may not even hit sort of the keyboard because I'm just going to let it go where it needs to go and hopefully I've connected those dots. So it's a very long way of saying it's written for anybody and everybody who wants to understand the power of story and all of its elements. And at the end of the day, I think that it's a reflection that we are human and feeling all of the experiences and emotions makes us human. And that's not a bad thing.

Chris Stone [: 00:50:08

I love that. And I also love the fact that you talked about your process and you talked about putting your headphones on and listening to movie scores. I'm a huge. I'm a huge music guy. It's in my DNA and always has been.300 Gladiator. What's your score of choice? Is it epic? I'm going to crush this book. Or is it, you know, William.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:50:35

So years ago, years ago, it was the Forrest Gump Suite. I love that. That was. That's long ago. Schindler's List, fantastic score. Yeah. Shawshank is one of my all time favorites. Oh, wow.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:50:50

I will tell you that this book, I should put it. I didn't put it in my acknowledgments, but I probably should have. But the score from the movie interstellar with Matthew McConaughey. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a. What is it? The Cornfield Chase. It's. If you look that up, that song, I.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:51:06

Okay. I would be scared and quite embarrassed to know how many times that played on repeat during my writing because I don't like to. Once I hear something, it gets me sort of into a zone and I just. I can go for hours on that song.

Chris Stone [: 00:51:23

On repeat.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:51:24

Oh, that's awesome.

Chris Stone [: 00:51:25

That's awesome that it's stuck in your head throughout the. Throughout the day. That's so. So back to the book. And we've talked to a number of people that, you know, storytelling is their thing, you know, and, you know, we understand the value of it. There's no question. It's what's. It's what can separate you from anyone else who might be doing kind of the same thing.

Chris Stone [: 00:51:50

It's. And there's more value to it, but that's, you know, in our world, that's a huge component of it. And so a lot of times when people sit down to say, I need to craft a story around something or I need to have my own story, they think that because they don't have this story where they were mountain climbing and they fell and broke their leg and were starving for two days, and then somehow they find their way back to a camp or whatever, that. That, you know, where you hear all these other people who have stories like that, that that's what they kind of lead with if they just have what they feel like is a regular life. How do you work with people to kind of identify what might be a story and then how to craft that and bring that forward?

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:52:39

Love that question. A couple of things, and I do this on the side. I'll work with senior leadership who are looking for. To sort of find their voice is really how they will come. Come to me. And it's through a series of interviews and conversations to understand what rabbit holes that either go down or that they avoid, and then figuring out that space between the two. So it's. So.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:53:01

And I love how you phrase that question, because I remember so. And I talk about this in the book. I was very lucky. I had a teacher when I was a sophomore, my geometry teacher, who said to me one day, I think you ought to join this nonprofit, right? And it was about sort of supporting community and kids. It was just a, you know, a feel good kind of a group. But I was this. I avoided trouble like the plague, right? I did not get in trouble. I didn't.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:53:24

I'm not saying I'm proud of this, whatever, but I was sort of very regimented and I. And I fell in line. Growing up as a kid, it's probably because of my rearing with my. My late German father, right, who was much older. And I started to. He had me. This teacher had started to have me. He wanted me to speak, right, and go to schools and speak in front of kids who were my age or older than me.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:53:47

Even. And I just remember thinking to your exact point, I didn't, I can't say that I, like, I don't know, started on some gateway drug and then all of a sudden I found my way back. You know, I had lost everything as a kid. I screwed up my academic record and now I'm back. I didn't have any of that. Who would want to hear from me? But you know what was really funny? One it was, I was so thankful that he pushed me and he pushed me really hard into a national competition for public speaking that I like all these sorts of things that I would have never done on my own. And then I started getting paid. This is the craziest part as a teenager to go and speak to other kids, which was pretty wild at that time.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:54:28

And I was just myself. And you know what I found? Look, it's like a, you know, now we think, of course, you know, like in politics, like, well, let's look at the demographic. How does it break down in the polls? You know, I didn't think like that as a 17 year old, but what I found was that, sure, I was talking to the masses, but because I was genuine to my experience, they were members of that audience that would come up to me afterwards. Kids, teachers, parents that had never heard someone talk from my perspective. Right. Yeah. And it was such a great lesson to say again, like, whenever I have gone off kilter and not been my best, it's when I've tried to, in essence, play to the audience. And I think that's so important in anything that we do.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:55:09

It's whether it's a speech that we're giving or it's a meeting that we're going to have. It's a pitch to investors. It's like you're either going to, in a sense, like me because I'm just being me, or you're not, because if I'm manufacturing a story because I think that's what you want, I'm totally missing, I'm missing an opportunity of connection. And I think that that's the key component. So I did learn that early on. Thank you. Goodness. I learned that lesson that, you know what, there is a space for all stories and I don't have to have this sort of, you know, I don't know, background that you see in Hollywood or that we used to see growing up that, oh, wow, okay, this is why you've got a story.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:55:46

No. And that was very important for me. I don't know if I'd be here today if I had not had that experience or those experiences.

Chris Stone [: 00:55:54

I love that you said miss the opportunity for connection. And I think every, everybody still wants to connect. And it's, you know, and stories are a huge component of that. Because a lot of times when you're in the midst of telling a story, and I know you've seen it, Rod, is all of a sudden you start to see people light up a little bit and they start to nod a little bit and they're imagining themselves in that spot. They've been there before or they know someone that's been a part of what you're. And you're connecting with that audience from the stage.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:56:26

And those naysayers, Chris, sorry to, but like the naysayers who say, oh, story, come on, that's whatever. It's like soft skills or something like that. Guess what? I know you need a story. When you pulled over for speeding, in between that time that you put your vehicle in park and that officer's approaching your car, what's the first thing you think about? You don't think about the game later that night. No, you think about the story that you're going to tell. You go on a blind date. As you're getting ready, you're going to go through me. You may not use that term in your mind, but you're gonna be thinking about the stories that you're going to share.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:56:54

They're going to sort of put you in the best position possible to be sort of received as someone who's attractive, who's interesting, etc. Etc. You go to your first job interview, what story are you going to use? Wow. How do I, how do I convey when I went through a challenge? I'm only 23. Are they going to believe me? Right. So story is always there when you need it most. You're going to go, you know, in sort of classical terms, you're going to go ask someone's parent if they can. If you can marry or, or propose.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:57:22

Right. Okay. Well, you're gonna have to share a story about why their child is loved that much by you. So story plays a role when we need it most. You know, look at the little kid who takes something they shouldn't take. Susie, why did you do that? Guess what? Even three year old Susie in her head's going, I need to come up with a story.

Chris Stone [: 00:57:45

You see, what it was, was. That's right.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:57:48

What my brother did.

Chris Stone [: 00:57:52

Oh, God, it's so, it's so true. Rod, this has been amazing. I, you know, I can't. I mean, we could, we could Go on for hours. And the folks that are here in the chat room. I'm. I apologize. I've been, I've been somewhat remiss of folks that are in the.

Chris Stone [: 00:58:12

Florence. Welcome. Welcome in. She was happy to catch the live show. She also says so true facts tell and stories sell. We didn't even get into like sales and how important storytelling is with sales. But I know you've got a ton of stuff related to that. But never fear, folks, because there's more.

Chris Stone [: 00:58:32

Dr. Rod Berger, if you go to a Dr. Rodberger.com and of course, make sure you go over, over to Amazon and pre order the narrative edge. Also I wanted to mention this as well is the YouTube channel, which is R. Berger as well. This is a great spot for, for the podcast or podcasts. You have like three of them, is that right?

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:58:59

I do, yeah. But now it's all. But now it's all under my own sort of channel, so I'm doing that. Okay. I want to add. Sure. Because you guys are motivating me in this live environment that those that are that pre order, they will be getting a. A lost chapter as well.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 00:59:16

So I'm excited about that.

Chris Stone [: 00:59:18

Listen, there's a story in the. The, the word. The lost chapter. I mean, it's just. He didn't say extra. He didn't say. He said this was a lost chapter. So you were thinking to yourself, what, did he just find it and decided to give it people to someone later? No, that's.

Chris Stone [: 00:59:36

This, this is good. You know how to craft a story, Rod. And we certainly appreciate you coming aboard and making our show better. And ladies and gentlemen, make sure you go and check out the narrative edge and check out Dr. Rod Berger. And as always, don't fear the gear. The amazing Ted Smith. Thank you for joining us.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 01:00:01

This is going to be fun.

Chris Stone [: 01:00:02

Where's my applause button?

Dr. Rod Berger [: 01:00:04

I gotta find the applause button.

Chris Stone [: 01:00:05

Oh, there it is. Let's go, let's go.

Dr. Rod Berger [: 01:00:09

Let's get some. Let's get hype in the house here.

Chris Stone [: 01:00:11

You know what?